Titus 3:5 and Baptismal Regeneration

[intricatic]

John 4 says;

1 Therefore, when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John 2 (though Jesus Himself did not baptize, but His disciples), 3 He left Judea and departed again to Galilee. 4 But He needed to go through Samaria.
5 So He came to a city of Samaria which is called Sychar, near the plot of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph. 6 Now Jacob’s well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied from His journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour.
7 A woman of Samaria came to draw water. Jesus said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
9 Then the woman of Samaria said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask a drink from me, a Samaritan woman?” For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”
11 The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water? 12 Are You greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank from it himself, as well as his sons and his livestock?”
13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.”
15 The woman said to Him, “Sir, give me this water, that I may not thirst, nor come here to draw.”
16 Jesus said to her, “Go, call your husband, and come here.”
(John 4)

Water / Spirit =

1 “Yet hear me now, O Jacob My servant,
And Israel whom I have chosen.
2 Thus says the LORD who made you
And formed you from the womb, who will help you:
‘ Fear not, O Jacob My servant;
And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
3 For I will pour water on him who is thirsty,
And floods on the dry ground;
I will pour My Spirit on your descendants,
And My blessing on your offspring;
4 They will spring up among the grass
Like willows by the watercourses.’
5 One will say, ‘I am the LORD’s’;
Another will call himself by the name of Jacob;
Another will write with his hand, ‘The LORD’s,’
And name himself by the name of Israel.
(Isaiah 44)

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

DeaconDean,

The point is that Jesus's baptism is the model for what it means to get baptized. It is the definition of baptism. There is no example in the Bible of someone getting baptized in any other way. And after this example of what baptism is, Jesus told his disciples to go out and baptize all nations in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist's baptism was only of water. But because Jesus is true God as well as being true man, His baptism is water and spirit, not water or spirit. Read the passage where Jesus gets baptized. You will see that both water and the Holy Spirit are present at His baptism. Baptism is the same way today.

Again, you are wrong.

Jesus' baptism was not a model to follow.

Jesus' baptism was His fulfilling of the Sacrifical Law. (cf. Lev. 1)

When we say Jesus fulfilled the law completely, He fulfilled it COMPLETELY!

And, if it was a model for us to follow, how come Jesus did not set the example and baptize others during his ministry?

Again, read what John Gill wrote on John 3:5 concerning water and Spirit:

Ver. 5. Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee,.... Explaining somewhat more clearly, what he before said:

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, twnv
twlm, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see
Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on "Joh 3:1"; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and unless a man has this work of his wrought on his soul, as he will never understand divine and spiritual things, so he can have no right to Gospel ordinances, or things appertaining to the kingdom of God; nor can he be thought to have passed from death to life, and to have entered into an open state of grace, and the kingdom of it; or that living and dying so, he shall ever enter into the kingdom of heaven; for unless a man is regenerated, he is not born heir apparent to it; and without internal holiness, shall not enter into it, enjoy it, or see God.

John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

How about Matthew Henry:

It is opened and further explained by our Lord Jesus, v. 5-8. From the objection he takes occasion,

(a.) To repeat and confirm what he had said (v. 5): "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, the very same that I said before." Note, The word of God is not yea and nay, but yea and amen; what he hath said he will abide by, whoever saith against it; nor will he retract any of his sayings for the ignorance and mistakes of men. Though Nicodemus understood not the mystery of regeneration, yet Christ asserts the necessity of it as positively as before. Note, It is folly to think of evading the obligation of evangelical precepts, by pleading that they are unintelligible, Rom. iii. 3, 4.

(b.) To expound and clear what he had said concerning regeneration; for the explication of which he further shows,

[a.] The author of this blessed change, and who it is that works it. To be born again is to be born of the Spirit, v. 5-8. The change is not wrought by any wisdom or power of our own, but by the power and influence of the blessed Spirit of grace. It is the sanctification of the Spirit (1 Pet. i. 2) and renewing of the Holy Ghost, Tit. iii. 5. The word he works by is his inspiration, and the heart to be wrought on he has access to.

[b.] The nature of this change, and what that is which is wrought; it is spirit, v. 6. Those that are regenerated are made spiritual, and refined from the dross and dregs of sensuality. The dictates and interests of the rational and immortal soul have retrieved the dominion they ought to have over the flesh. The Pharisees placed their religion in external purity and external performances; and it would be a mighty change indeed with them, no less than a new birth, to become spiritual.

Commentary on the Whole Bible Volume V (Matthew to John) | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Water is just that, water.

It has everything to do with being "generated" (cf. Jn. 3:3 - born again) by God through the working of the Holy Spirit.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

Again, you are wrong.

Jesus' baptism was not a model to follow.

1) Why did Jesus tell the apostles to baptize all nations?

2) Why did Paul say that baptism replaces circumcision?

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

Water is just that, water.

3) Why does the Bible show the Holy Spirit descending like a dove at the time of a water baptism?

4) Why does the bible describe being born again as having two components, water and spirit?

5) Why does Jesus say that we need to be born of water and spirit (not just spirit alone) to enter into Heaven?

6) What example can you give me in the Bible of someone getting baptized without the use of water?

7) In the Acts 8:36, why did the eunuch say, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"?

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

1) Why did Jesus tell the apostles to baptize all nations?

Romans 6:3-4.

2) Why did Paul say that baptism replaces circumcision?

Colossians 2:12

Ver. 12. Buried with him in baptism,.... The apostle goes on to observe how complete and perfect the saints are in Christ; that they are not only circumcised in him in a spiritual sense, and the body of the sins of their flesh is put off, and removed from them, in allusion to the cutting off and casting away of the foreskin in circumcision; but that they and all their sins were buried with Christ, of which their baptism in water was a lively representation: Christ having died for their sins, was laid in the grave, where he continued for a while, and then rose again; and as they were crucified with him, they were also buried with him, as their head and representative; and all their sins too, which he left behind him in the grave, signified by his grave clothes there; and baptism being performed by immersion, when the person baptized is covered with water, and as it were buried in it, is a very significant emblem of all this; it is a representation of the burial of Christ, and very fitly holds him forth to the view of faith in the state of the dead, in the grave, and points out the place where the Lord lay; and it is also a representation of our burial with him, as being dead to sin, to the law, and to the world, by him. This shows now, that baptism was performed by dipping, or covering the whole body in water, for no other form of administration of baptism, as sprinkling, or pouring water on the face, can represent a burial, or be called one; and this is what many learned interpreters own, and observe on this place:

wherein also ye are risen with [him]; Christ is risen from the dead as the head and representative of his people, and they are risen with him; and their baptism is also an emblem of his and their resurrection, being administered by immersion, in which way only this can be signified; for as the going down into the water, and being under it, represents Christ's descending into the state of the dead, and his continuance in it, so the emersion, or coming up out of the water, represents his rising from the dead, and that of his people in him, in order to walk in newness of life; for the apostle's meaning is, that in baptism saints are risen with Christ, as well as in it buried with him: and this

through the faith of the operation of God; that is, it is through faith that saints see themselves buried and risen with Christ, to which the ordinance of baptism is greatly assisting, where there is true faith; for otherwise, without faith, this ordinance will be of no use to any such end and purpose; and it is not any faith that will avail, but that which is of God's operation; faith is not naturally in men, all men have it not; and those that have it, have it not of themselves, it is the gift of God; it is what be works in them, and by his power performs:

who hath raised him from the dead; this is a periphrasis of God the Father, to whom the resurrection of Christ from the dead is generally ascribed; though not to the exclusion of Christ, and of the Spirit, who were also concerned; and is here added, partly to show in what respect faith, which is God's work, has him for its object, as having raised Christ from the dead, who was delivered for offences, but is risen again through the power of God for justification, and whoever with his heart believes this shall be saved; and partly to show, that the same power is exerted in working true faith in the heart, as was put forth in raising Christ from the dead.

http://www.freegrace.net/gill/

With this, also read Rom. 6:3-4.

Why is it that Paul is the only one of the Apostles who was baptized?

3) Why does the Bible show the Holy Spirit descending like a dove at the time of a water baptism?

To show God's approval of Jesus as the lamb. All the process of Jesus being baptized was for God to examine the lamb prior to sacrifice as described in Ex. 12, the lamb was kept inside for 3 days prior to the sacrifice, as in the Exodus account, then it was reexamined before actually being sacrificed to insure it was actually spotless, then it was sacrificed.

Jesus presented him to God to be examined in the baptismal accounts, God approved, the Spirit descends, and God audibly approves. (Matt. 3) Then just prior tp His sacrifice, He was examined again on the Mount of Transfiguration where God again approves of Jesus to be the propitation for our sins.

Or do you believe that Jesus needed to be anointed with the Spirit?

Jesus' baptism was a fulfillment of the sacrifical laws according to Lev. 1.

Or do you not believe that Jesus fulfilled the law?

4) Why does the bible describe being born again as having two components, water and spirit?

Because both terms are equal in meaning.

John 3:5

Ver. 5. Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee,.... Explaining somewhat more clearly, what he before said:

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, twnv twlm, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see
Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on "Joh 3:1"; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and unless a man has this work of his wrought on his soul, as he will never understand divine and spiritual things, so he can have no right to Gospel ordinances, or things appertaining to the kingdom of God; nor can he be thought to have passed from death to life, and to have entered into an open state of grace, and the kingdom of it; or that living and dying so, he shall ever enter into the kingdom of heaven; for unless a man is regenerated, he is not born heir apparent to it; and without internal holiness, shall not enter into it, enjoy it, or see God.

John Gill's Exposition of the whole Bible.

5) Why does Jesus say that we need to be born of water and spirit (not just spirit alone) to enter into Heaven?

See above answer.

6) What example can you give me in the Bible of someone getting baptized without the use of water?

And the survey says:

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -Acts 1:5 (KJV)

I don't see any water here? Hum...

What has this to do with the question at hand?

7) In the Acts 8:36, why did the eunuch say, "See, here is water! What is to prevent my being baptized?"?

Again, what does this have to do with the question at hand?

Can you use the bible to show me where any of the disciples/apostles, other than Paul were baptized?

If baptism is such a big requirement, why is it that Jesus did not teach and practice baptism?

And again, what has all this to do with "baptismal regeneration" and Titus 3:5????????????

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

6) What example can you give me in the Bible of someone getting baptized without the use of water?

"For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." -Acts 1:5 (KJV)

Baptism with water is with the Holy Ghost (a.k.a. Holy Spirit), that's why we saw the Holy Ghost descend like a dove at Jesus' baptism. When Jesus was baptized, it transformed baptism from being just with water to it being water and the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say the Holy Ghost alone which is what you are trying to say. It says in the Bible water and spirit, not water or spirit.

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

Baptism with water is with the Holy Ghost (a.k.a. Holy Spirit), that's why we saw the Holy Ghost descend like a dove at Jesus' Baptism. When Jesus was baptized, it changed it from being just with water to it being water and the Holy Spirit. It doesn't say the Holy Ghost alone which is what you are trying to say. It says in the Bible water and spirit, not water or spirit.

John 3:5

Ver. 5. Jesus answered, verily, verily, I say unto thee,.... Explaining somewhat more clearly, what he before said:

except a man be born of water and of the Spirit: these are, twnv twlm, "two words", which express the same thing, as Kimchi observes in many places in his commentaries, and signify the grace of the Spirit of God. The Vulgate Latin and Ethiopic versions read, "the Holy Spirit", and so Nonnus; and who doubtless is intended: by "water", is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was, and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state; yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see
Eze 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to, a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures: and if Nicodemus was an officer in the temple, that took care to provide water at the feasts, as Dr. Lightfoot thinks, and as it should seem Nicodemon ben Gorion was, by the story before related of him; See Gill on "Joh 3:1"; very pertinently does our Lord make mention of water, it being his own element: regeneration is sometimes ascribed to God the Father, as in 1Pe 1:3, and sometimes to the Son, 1Jo 2:29 and here to the Spirit, as in Tit 3:5, who convinces of sin, sanctifies, renews, works faith, and every other grace; begins and carries on the work of grace, unto perfection;

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God; and unless a man has this work of his wrought on his soul, as he will never understand divine and spiritual things, so he can have no right to Gospel ordinances, or things appertaining to the kingdom of God; nor can he be thought to have passed from death to life, and to have entered into an open state of grace, and the kingdom of it; or that living and dying so, he shall ever enter into the kingdom of heaven; for unless a man is regenerated, he is not born heir apparent to it; and without internal holiness, shall not enter into it, enjoy it, or see God.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Psalms2]

DeaconDean,

Thank you, but prefer the ancient interpretation over a modern one.

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

DeaconDean,

Thank you, but prefer the ancient interpretation over a modern one.

What ancient interpretation? We have no ancient Greek manuscripts which no further back than around AD 15-225. THe p46 dates to around this period, but it is an incomplete copy of the whole NT. And, since your so keen on "ancient interpretations," how come the earliest one is only from around the 4th century? (The Sinaitic Codex) Some 270 years +/- a few years.

Now I'm not talking about revelation as God gave the prophets and apostles for than time period is long gone, but since when has revelation stopped? Or do you discount that the Holy Spirit would led us to all truth? And since when does knowledge have to come to a stand still? If it hadn't of been for men studying ancient dead languages, we wouldn't have the Hebrew OT, or the Greek NT.

As Desi Arnez used to say: "Ai, yi, yi"

Ok, how about Jesus referring to himself as the "Living water?"

Do you deny that one too?

And can you even answer the original question?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

What ancient interpretation? We have no ancient Greek manuscripts which no further back than around AD 15-225.

That would be a lot older than your interpretation which is a modern one and would be completely foreign to the early Church.

But in its seventh chapter, the Didache reads, "Concerning baptism, baptize in this manner: Having said all these things beforehand, baptize in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit in living water [that is, in running water, as in a river]. If there is no living water, baptize in other water; and, if you are not able to use cold water, use warm. If you have neither, pour water three times upon the head in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." These instructions were composed either while some of the apostles and disciples were still alive or during the next generation of Christians, and they represent an already established custom.