Titus 3:5 and Baptismal Regeneration

[DeaconDean]

Here is another topic I am researching for the up coming debate.

There is a group that believes, and I quote:

Originally Posted by John Crips

One must be born of these two elements. One must be born of the water and of the Spirit, in order to enter the kingdom.

The new birth which brings one out of sin and into righteousness, has these two elements, water, which is baptism, water baptism. (cf Titus 3:5)

And he is basing his statement on John 3:5 where Jesus said:

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Now we know that water can be used as a metaphor as in:

"Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters …" (Isaiah 55:1 KJV).

The Psalmist David knew also when he said:

"As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?" (Psalm 42:1-2 KJV)

Jesus tells the Samaritan women:

"If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." -Jn. 4:10 (KJV)

So, you absolutely must be born of that "living water" which comes from God and of the Holy Spirit.

Then Mr. Crips goes on to say:

You have a problem in Titus 3:5 because he says there is the "washing of regeneration" and "of the Holy Spirit." So if the washing is the Holy Spirit that passage of scripture does not make any sense whatsoever. The fact is there is a renewing, there is a washing that must take place and that is in the waters of baptism.

This is where they believe that:

When one, by faith in Christ, obeys his word and is baptized, regeneration or purification of the soul occurs!

Ergo: Baptismal Regeneration.

We have already established the fact that regeneration occurs after conviction and prior to, faith being given.

It is the special office of the Spirit to convince the world of sin; to reveal Christ, to regenerate the soul, to lead men to the exercise of faith and repentance; to dwell in those whom He thus renews, as a principle of a new and divine life. By this indwelling of the Spirit, believers are united to Christ, and to one another, so that they form one body. This is the foundation of the communion of saints, making them one in faith, one in love, one in their inward life, and one in their hopes and final destiny."

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, Theology Proper, Chapter VIII, The Office of the Holy Spirit, The Spirit's Office in the Work of Regeneration, Section 4.

In effect, Hodge outlines the special work of the Holy Spirit as:

1) Conviction

2) Regeneration

3) Faith is given and the exercise of faith and repentance

4) Indwelling after repentance.

So, how would you respond to this?

The biggest problem I can see is that they take the word "washing" quite literally and to the extreme. Unless I'm mistaken, the three Greek words in Titus 3:5 "loutrou" "paliggenesiaV" and "anakainwsewV" are in the Genetive case and express possession. "of washing" "of regeneration" and "of renewal." Who other than "He" or the "pneumatoV" (Spirit) possess this?

Genitive Case
For the most part, the genitive is often viewed as the case of possession. In more technical terms one noun in the genitive case helps to qualify another noun by showing its "class" or "kind". The genitive case has more uses than most other cases, but in general a noun in the genitive case helps to limit the scope of another noun by indicating its "kind" or "class". It is generally translated into English with a prepositional phrase starting with the word "of". The most common use of the genitive is to show possession (although it does not necessarily indicate actual, literal ownership).

Greek Nouns (Shorter Definitions)

What I see here is "the washing of regeneration and renewal" is limited to the "kind" which of course would be the pneumatos (Spirit).

Thus making these genetives "Attributive Genetive" since the washing of regeneration and renewal" are attributed to the Spirit. Or they still could be "Possessive Genitive" since the only one who can posses the power to "washing of regeneration and renewal" is the Holy Spirit.

Either way, the power lies in the Spirit and not in the baptism.

And in any case, the text clearly indicates that "He has saved us," how?

Through "the washing of regeneration and renewal" which only comes through the Holy "Spirit."

In essence, they make all their doctrines hinge on baptism.

They take the word "wash" "washing" "washed" quite literally and to the extreme.

You are not "saved" until you are baptized.

Your not regenerated until you are baptized.

You are not converted until you are baptized.

You can't have the Holy Spirit unless you have been baptized.

This is exactly what they taught on their show:

•The new birth is simultaneous with conversion.
–John 3:3-5 - The new birth (out of sin, into righteousness) has two elements:
–Water: Baptism - cf. Titus 3:5.
•The Spirit: The Holy Spirit revealed word, the gospel - cf. Ephesians 5:25-26; 1 Peter 1:22-23.
•When one, by faith in Christ, obeys His word and is baptized, regeneration or purification of the soul occurs!
•2 Corinthians 5:17 - At the moment we are in Christ, we are new creatures.
•Sinners were told to believe, not wait for the Holy Spirit in order to be able to believe! - cf. Acts 16:30-32; 8:5-6.
•If a man cannot obey God until God regenerates him, and God never regenerates him, whose fault is it that the man is lost?
–This Baptist doctrine, in effect, makes God responsible for man’s damnation!

Mr. John Crips, one of the co-hosts said this:

(reference to the second bullet (–Water: Baptism - cf. Titus 3:5.))

You have a problem in Titus 3:5 because he says there is the "washing of regeneration" and the Holy "Spirit." So if the washing is the Hoily Spirit that passage of scripture does not make any sense whatsoever. The fact is, there is a renewing, there is a washing that must take place and that is in the waters of baptism. (Acts 2:38)

(Reference to the third bullet here: When one, by faith in Christ, obeys His word and is baptized, regeneration or purification of the soul occurs!)

Originally Posted by Mr. John Crips

Well, how do we get into Christ Jesus? That is important, Gal. 3:26-27 tells us how we get into Christ Jesus. We only become "new creations" when we have come into Christ. And the only way we can come into Christ is through regeneration and purification that comes through the Spirit and the washing.

(Note here: I talked to my seminary teacher, and he advised me to write down everything they said on the show about the subject I am going to debate them on. And that is what I have done. I sat down and for two hours, wrote down word for word, what was said. So rest assured what I quoted is exactly what they said. I would not bear false witness against these men.)

Nearly everything they are teaching, hinges on the fact of baptism, or the lack thereof.

And in the lecture or discussion on Baptist doctrines in "Lesson 14," they prove everything hinges on baptism:

•Purposes Of Baptism:
–Matthew 28:19 - It places one into a relationship with Deity.
–Mark 16:16 - It is essential to be saved.
–Acts 2:38 - Necessary for the remission of sins and for the gift of the Holy Spirit.
–Acts 22:16 - By it sins are washed away.
–Romans 6:3 - It puts one into Christ.
–Romans 6:3 - It brings one into contact with the death of Christ (the benefits of His death - His saving blood).
–Romans 6:4 - Through it, we die to sin.
–Galatians 3:26-27 - It is the action of faith by which we ‘put on Christ.’
–Colossians 2:11-13 - At baptism, the sins of the flesh are put off, as we receive the circumcision of Christ, and are buried with Him.
–1 Peter 3:21 - It saves us, through the resurrection of Christ.

Do you guys see where I'm coming from?

I mean, these guys, quite literally, want to put the cart before the horse.

Opinions, thoughts?

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Pete Martinez]

I am just as bitter and intolerant as I was now as I was before I got baptized. J/k
But seriously,

1 Peter 3:21- The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

It is the answer of a Good conscience toward God that saves us, not the actual action that saves.
1 Cor 1:14-I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1 Cor 1:17-For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Baptism is important, don't get me wrong, and there isn't any excuse not to be baptized, but to insist that you cannot be saved unless you get baptized is a direct violation of Ephesians 2:9-10, because then we can boast that our salvation was based on something we did, and that the Cross is incomplete for forgiveness and salvation until we do something as well.

[Gwenyfur]

Baptism isn't a requirement of salvation, it is an outward sign of following the Master's steps...We're already baptized by the Ha Kodesh upon salvation and repentence...as taught in these Scriptures:
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
repeated in Luke...Y'shua doesn't repeat pointlessly...
Luke 3:16
John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Mark 1:7-9
And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
Baptism of Ha Kodesh is what strengthens our faith, encourages us when we're lagging, drives us when we've a goal, and convicts us when we stumble
Acts 1:5
For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. (Pentacost)
Again Scripture indicates that baptism isn't the salvific work, but obedience to the Master:
Acts 19:3-5
3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

I hope this helps...

[intricatic]

Baptism is not unnecessary, but it must be understood in context. We are not humanists that we should understand mindless ritual to be effective at saving souls. The physical act of baptism, to even the most clouded mind, must be understood to be nothing but a physical act. There is no mystical element to it; it cannot change a polluted mind into an unpolluted mind, nor a polluted heart into an unpolluted heart. It can clean the dirt off your body if you haven't bathed in a week, but that's about it.

One must understand the order to be baptized to be something more than the ritual for it to make sense. One can effectively be baptized without the physical water at all, for as Isaiah says;

1 And in that day you will say:
“ O LORD, I will praise You;
Though You were angry with me,
Your anger is turned away, and You comfort me.
2 Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
‘ For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song;
He also has become my salvation.’”
3 Therefore with joy you will draw water
From the wells of salvation.
(Isaiah 12)

The water is God's grace. The physical act of baptism is submission to the ecclesiastical community, to demonstrate something that has occurred within the life of a believer. It's nothing more, and it's nothing less. To be born of water and spirit as in John;

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
(John 3)

...is to imply a birth elicited by God, and a response by man. One must bear in mind that Nicodemus, being blind to the truth of God, believed Jesus was speaking of physical things when Jesus made this allusion to being "born again". I don't intend to make the same mistake.

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
(John 3)

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

Now we know that water can be used as a metaphor

Did Jesus get baptized in a metaphor for water, or did Jesus get baptized in actual water in the river Jordan?

[intricatic]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

Did Jesus get baptized in a metaphor for water, or did Jesus get baptized in actual water in the river Jordan?

Jesus baptized:

50 Now behold, there was a man named Joseph, a council member, a good and just man. 51 He had not consented to their decision and deed. He was from Arimathea, a city of the Jews, who himself was also waiting for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. 53 Then he took it down, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb that was hewn out of the rock, where no one had ever lain before. 54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near.
55 And the women who had come with Him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. 56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
(Luke 23)

&

1 Now on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they, and certain other women with them, came to the tomb bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the tomb. 3 Then they went in and did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it happened, as they were greatly perplexed about this, that behold, two men stood by them in shining garments. 5 Then, as they were afraid and bowed their faces to the earth, they said to them, “Why do you seek the living among the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen! Remember how He spoke to you when He was still in Galilee, 7 saying, ‘The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.’”
8 And they remembered His words. 9 Then they returned from the tomb and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the other women with them, who told these things to the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them like idle tales, and they did not believe them. 12 But Peter arose and ran to the tomb; and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths lying by themselves; and he departed, marveling to himself at what had happened.
(Luke 24)

What, you say?

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
(Romans 6)

Is it really a ritual act of dunking someone in water somewhere? How is that efficacious to the purifying of the soul? The baptism of John was about repentance, but moreover, it was about identifying with a growing movement which rejected the self-imposed righteousness of the legal order of the day. The entire idea of a baptism of repentance is that one cannot be righteous by their own power, but by the Grace of God. Thus;

13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”
15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
(Matthew 3)

&

4 Now John himself was clothed in camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him 6 and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
(Matthew 3)

[Jenniewren]

I find this discussion interesting because my Sister in law believes there are two stages to salvation. She believes that at the time of salvation our sins are forgiven and we will go to heaven. She then believes that at the time of baptism the person receives the Holy Spirit. She calls this being born again. Her church bases this on the events in Acts 19:1-5.

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into[b] the name of the Lord Jesus. 6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues[c] and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.

I was taught that the reason they had not received the Holy Spirit was because they didn't have enough knowledge of Jesus. At the moment of salvation we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit at the same time and baptism is a symbolic public response to this. I firmly believe it is one event and if that were not so we would be told so without room for doubt.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by Jenniewren

She then believes that at the time of baptism the person receives the Holy Spirit. She calls this being born again.

This is exactly the way it happens biblically when Jesus gets baptized in the river Jordan. Jesus gets wet with water, and at that time, the Holy Spirit descends like a dove. It's not water or spirit, it's water and spirit.

It's also important to note that at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three persons of the Holy Trinity are witnessed before the crowd of people.

Because Jesus is God and was/is without sin, he did not need to get baptized. But he did it so that he could sanctify the waters of baptism with his divinity so that the Holy Spirit could sanctify us at our baptism and to show us the model for how we need to get baptized.

God makes it simple by showing us simple models for what we need to do so that we don't have to be a genius to be saved.

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" -Acts 8:36

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

This is exactly the way it happens biblically when Jesus gets baptized in the river Jordan. Jesus gets wet with water, and at that time, the Holy Spirit descends like a dove. It's not water or spirit, it's water and spirit.

It's also important to note that at the time of Jesus' baptism, all three persons of the Holy Trinity are witnessed before the crowd of people.

Because Jesus is God and was/is without sin, he did not need to get baptized. But he did it so that he could sanctify the waters of baptism with his divinity so that the Holy Spirit could sanctify us at our baptism and to show us the model for how we need to get baptized.

God makes it simple by showing us simple models for what we need to do so that we don't have to be a genius to be saved.

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" -Acts 8:36

Ok, here I gotta call you on this one.

Why was Jesus baptized?

If we heed your teaching it was to:

But he did it so that he could sanctify the waters of baptism with his divinity so that the Holy Spirit could sanctify us at our baptism and to show us the model for how we need to get baptized.

Ok, if it is the "model" for us to follow, show where in the gospels, during His ministry, Jesus preached the necessity of "baptism?"

First off, Jesus' baptism was not to be an example for us to follow. If it were, He would have led by example and Himself would have baptized others as an example to His disciples.

Somebody said John preached repentance. Yes he did, but the repentance that he preached, and the repentance Jesus preached, were two different things.

What did Jesus have to repent of that He needed to be baptized?

Now before I say this, the issue here is not the mode of baptism, but rather, the obedience to His command to be baptized.

The day before Passover, in Egypt, Moses was told on the 10th day before Passover, he was to go out into the flock, pick a lamb of the first year, spotless, without blemish. it was to be taken back to the house, and held inside until the 14th day. Then it was examined to see if it was still spotless and without blemish. If it was, it was to be killed, and the blood placed on the lentils and doorposts. This way the angel would pass by the House of Israel. (Ex. 12:3-7)

Later on, in Leviticus, the law was given concerning the sacrifice. According to Lev. 1:9-13, the sacrifice was to be washed.

In Jesus' baptism, He is here announcing to the world His presenting Himself to the Father to be examined to see if He was spotless and with blemish. Washed, and accepted by the Father. To prove He was accepted as our "sacrifical lamb," we have the Father's testimony:

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." -Mt. 3:17

After the baptism, Jesus started His three year ministry. Compare this to the three days the Lamb was kept in the house.

On the night before Passover, Jesus took Peter, James and John with Him up to the Mount of Transfiguration.

There Jesus presented Himself again to the Father to be examined to see if He was spotless and without blemish. Here, Jesus was accepted as our sacrifical Lamb for we have the Father's approval again:

"This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.' -Mt. 17:5

Now, Jesus is ready to go to Calvary as our Lamb, our sacrifice for sin.

One of the titles for which you could call John would have been John the revealer, or John the Identifier.

According to Isa. 40:5:

"And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together," -Isa. 40:5

John "identified" who the Messiah was:

"This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is prefered before me: for he was before me." -Jn. 1:30

John not only "identified' whom the Messiah was, he also revealed the glory of the Lord also:

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." -Jn. 1:29

Jesus is also refered to as a high priest after the order of Malchisedec. Yes, Jesus is now our High Priest, but he did not require washing per se in order to assume His priestly duties.

The High priests were also annointed, and Jesus' name/title "Christ" literally means "the annointed one."

So the qualifications for the priesthood did not apply per se, to Jesus.

So why was Jesus baptized?

Jesus was baptized in order to fulfill the requirements of both the sacrifice in Ex. 12:3-7; and Lev. 1:9-13.

Jesus, as our sacrifice for sin, fulfilled the Law concerning the sacrifice in His baptism. Plain and simple.

At the moment of salvation we are born again and receive the Holy Spirit at the same time and baptism is a symbolic public response to this. I firmly believe it is one event and if that were not so we would be told so without room for doubt.

That is exactly right.

In Acts 10, Peter has been called by Cornelius. Peter preached the word to him. Then, we see a miracle happen:

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?" -Acts 10:45-47 (KJV)

These people, who had heard the Word being preached, had the Holy Spirit poured out on them, before they were baptized.

So I cannot, and I will not accept Acts 2:38 as the axium for which doctrines are placed that one has to be baptized in order to receive the Holy Spirit.

Water, specifically water baptism, does not "sanctify us."

It's not water or spirit, it's water and spirit.

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't one of the titles associated with Jesus is "living water?"

"Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water." -Jn. 4:10 (KJV)

You must be born of that "living water" which comes from Christ, and of the Spirit.

The Inspirations have a song entitled "Thank God I made it" in which in the chorus they sing:

"I cried Thank God I made it,
My feet have reached the streets of Gold.

Streets of Gold I now am walking,
just passed by the tree of life,
took a drink of living water,
flowing down from God on high."

J.I. Packer shows in his book "Concise Theology" that "Sanctification" does not come by "baptism:"

"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God?...And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Cor. 6:9, 11).

Sanctification, says the Westminster Shorter Catechism (Q.35), is "the work of God's free grace, whereby we are renewed in the whole man after the image of God, and are enabled more and more to die unto sin, and live unto righteousness." The concept is not of sin being totally eradicated (that is to claim too much) or merely counteracted (that is to say too little), but of a divinely wrought character change freeing us from sinful habits and forming in us Christlike affections, dispositions, and virtues.

Sanctification is an ongoing transformation within a maintained consecration, and it engenders real righteousness within the frame of relational holiness. Relational sanctification, the state of being permanently set apart for God, flows from th