Works based salvation

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by Pete Martinez

If salvation were an apple tree the fruit would be proof the tree is an apple tree. The proof someone is a millionaire is shown when all of a sudden the house turns into a mansion and the car turns into a limo. And the proof that someone has been saved will show because they all of a sudden want to please God and do good works for him.

I agree.

[DeaconDean]

Psalms 2, you are the most vocal in this thread of producing works according to James 2, explain to me what exactly is a "work of righteousness?"

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." -Rom. 11:6 (KJV)

So I ask you to please define what is and what isn't a "work of righteousness?"

Because I need to know. That way when I get to heaven, I can brag on the works of righteousness that I have done.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[wilkette]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

Reconcile what? Whatever you might imagine about me, I didn't say anything that contradicts what is in the Bible. How do you reconcile the fact that Jesus separated the sheep from the goats based on what they did or did not do? I can reconcile it because I believe, as it says in James, if faith doesn't produce good works then it is dead faith. Jesus even says it in another way. Jesus says that you shall know the tree by the fruit that it bears. So I believe that the fruit of good faith is good works.

But don't misquote me or misunderstand me. There is nothing we can do to earn our way into Heaven. It's only Christ's blood that was spilled for us that merits Heaven for us. But we have to be willing to cooperate with Jesus in his plan for our salvation, so he still tells us all the things that he expects us to do to become Holy.

If we say that God doesn't care at all what we do, then we would fall into the heresy of universalism which says that there is no Hell and that everyone is going to Heaven no matter what they did or did not do in life. And of course this is the opposite of what Jesus said about the sheep and the goats.

P2 - I hope I did not give you the impression I was misquoting you when I referred to the OP (I was actually talking about the quoted text from the first post). I do not think that God does not care what we do - but I am afraid we are getting into a circular argument in that we are saying the same thing in two different ways. I agree that there is a grave danger in suggesting works are irrelevant to faith; however, in the purest and simplest form, they are irrelevant to the moment of salvation. Yes, they will come as an aftermath, but they have no place in that moment itself. Does that make sense, or am I fuddling my words (I have a tendency to do that). This is why I say we are both looking at the same conclusion, just from two different standpoints. Equal to the danger of proclaiming works to be worthless is to push their necessity in the context of salvation. We know it is the fruit, but a new believer could easily confuse it for the tree. I guess that's what I was trying to say earlier.

[blessed and forgiven]

wilkette, I love the word fuddling. It sounds just like what it means. Where did you first hear it?
Your explanation for mistaking the tree for the fruit is such a great way to explain a pretty difficult concept.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by DeaconDean

Psalms 2, you are the most vocal in this thread of producing works according to James 2, explain to me what exactly is a "work of righteousness?"

Jesus gave us a list of them, things we should and should not do, in His Sermon on the Mount in the gospel of Matthew, chapters 5-7. Jesus also said that we shall know the tree by the fruit it bears, and remember what Jesus did to the fig tree that did not bear any fruit.

"A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." -Matt. 7:18-19

[wilkette]

Originally Posted by blessed and forgiven

wilkette, I love the word fuddling. It sounds just like what it means. Where did you first hear it?
Your explanation for mistaking the tree for the fruit is such a great way to explain a pretty difficult concept.

You know, I have no idea. It was probably something my grandparents said that I picked up offhand. It is a lovely word, eh?

Thank you for the compliment.

[Psalms2]

Originally Posted by wilkette

P2 - I hope I did not give you the impression I was misquoting you when I referred to the OP (I was actually talking about the quoted text from the first post). I do not think that God does not care what we do - but I am afraid we are getting into a circular argument in that we are saying the same thing in two different ways. I agree that there is a grave danger in suggesting works are irrelevant to faith; however, in the purest and simplest form, they are irrelevant to the moment of salvation. Yes, they will come as an aftermath, but they have no place in that moment itself. Does that make sense, or am I fuddling my words (I have a tendency to do that). This is why I say we are both looking at the same conclusion, just from two different standpoints. Equal to the danger of proclaiming works to be worthless is to push their necessity in the context of salvation. We know it is the fruit, but a new believer could easily confuse it for the tree. I guess that's what I was trying to say earlier.

I think I understand what you are saying. Thanks for explaining it.

[Gwenyfur]

Mod Hat ON
Please remember that we are all brethren in the Blood of our Savior and Messiah. While there may be doctrinal differences we are meant to discuss them as brothers and sisters, not bludgeon with them

Thank you
Mod Hat OFF

[DeaconDean]

Originally Posted by Psalms2

Jesus gave us a list of them, things we should and should not do, in His Sermon on the Mount in the gospel of Matthew, chapters 5-7. Jesus also said that we shall know the tree by the fruit it bears, and remember what Jesus did to the fig tree that did not bear any fruit.

"A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." -Matt. 7:18-19

–Acts 10:34-35 - There are ‘works of righteousness’ we must do in order to be acceptable to God.


There are works of righteoueness we must do, and we cannot deny this very plain teaching here in Acts chapter 10, verses 34 through 35.

The bible plainly tells us that all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.

There is no work I can do that will equal to or exceed that which Christ has aready done on my behalf at calvary.

God told Cain himself:

"And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." -Gen 4:6-7 (KJV)

And does not the Apostle Paul teach us almost the same exact same thing:

"For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men." -Rom. 14:18 (KJV)

And as far as "works" are concerned and our duty to Christ, did He not teach us that we have nothing above and beyond what was called for or is expected of us?

"But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do." -Lk. 17:7-10 (KJV)

Even at best, even doing "works of righteousness" (which by the way, nobody has as of yet told me exactly what is a work of righteousness) we should regard ourselves as "unprofitable servants" because after all, we have only "done that which was our duty to do".

So, unless I'm mistaken, these men are teaching a works based salvation. The guy actually says:

Originally Posted by John Crips

Works of righteousness that God has commanded us to do it is that faith, that saves. It is the faith plus the works because faith on its own is dead.

Now does or does not these statements say that you have to add to faith, works in order to be saved and acceptable to God?

A works based salvation.

And this is almost the same thing I am hearing from you too.

Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was not enough to secure our righteousness. We must add to the finished work of Christ, works in order to be acceptable unto God.

And if I add to His finished work, all I can do is contaminate it.

Sorry, but I cannot see it your way.

God Bless

Till all are one.

[Aletheia]

The Lord reconciled Faith vs. Works to me like this: He explained to me that, true faith and good works are inseperable as though they are in wedlock. He showed me that Faith is as the father,the husband and the head of the union and Works are as the bride whom is in subjection to her husband. Then the two together bear a child who's name is Obedience.

True faith will always be followed by good works, and good works will always be wrought in faith.

Acting in righteousness is to be obedient to the Lords leading, for He is our righteousness. Our obedience attributes us nothing but we still are to obey, that is, unless we are ungrateful self centered children. Its a matter of yielding and acting in accordanance with the Holy Spirit, not by our own endeavoring to please Him.

It is by grace we are saved, through faith, and this is not of ourselves. Therefore even our faith is a gift of God. Now faith being the father and the foundation of our salvation and works being subject to that faith or else building upon that rock, the results are soley dependant upon and can only be attributed to that on which it has been founded i.e. Jesus Christ.

It all comes back to grace.

"... I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God within me." - 1 Corinthians 15:10