I'm slightly confused, and reaaalllly need some advice.

[Mr.Dude]

Okay... so at this church I go to, they're 'independant fundamental baptist'. I kinda figure it's cool as long as they're brothers and sisters in Christ, which they are seeing as they preach salvation through Jesus Christ. But the thing is, I was a little concerned about the doctrine taught. But I figured I shouldn't really question it aloud, and go to this church with my dad seeing as he's the head of the household and chooses where we go to church, and the like. I've discovered I'm not baptist... where I agree with alot of their doctrine, I don't believe in denominations the least bit. Now I was concerned with some of their doctrine being taught, specifically in my sunday school class. I didn't really think much of it, just kind of ignoring things that were obviously wrong... until I talked to someone about it yesterday... she's pretty much my 'idiot filter', you know, I run things through her, and she kinda lets me in on if I'm really on to something, or just being an idiot. The thing is, when I started to talk to her about this stuff, she even started crying a little that someone would be teaching this... mainly because one of the teachings was that you should hate yourself, something which I had been struggling with on whether or not I should, and I had finally been convinced that I should, which led me to almost kill myself. I had a knife in my hand, not even kidding. I realize now that hating yourself is dead wrong, but the point is, she thought that I need to talk to these people about this, or something might happen. I kinda realized that maybe there really is something there that just ain't right.

So a few of the things I have a problem with in that church is that they preach that the king james version is the one and only bible and any other is a lie straight from hell. I tried explaining that the kjv is based on byzantine text written latter than the texts that the niv is based on. They said it was a lie straight from the pits of hell. Another thing was that they believe rock music is evil, in fact, anything with a beat is not something that you should be listening to. For me, I can't really understand why they would talk down such a great ministry, something that's even changed my life for the good. Blindside is one of those Christian rockish bands that I listen to, in fact, they're my favorite. Not because they're a good band with a good sound to them, but because they've helped to change my life, and through their music taught me some pretty powerful lessons. I don't know where I'd be without them. And then this church comes along and tells me that it's a lie from the devil that Christian rock is a good ministry. It really, really bothers me.

Now, about this sunday school class... gosh. I remember them teaching us one day that every song you sing should be a new song, because it says in psalms something along the lines of "I will sing a new song" so therefore, it's a command that it should be a new song. And that you should be able to understand what they're saying because it says in psalms 47:7 in the kjv "For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understading". He does alot of that. Pulling verses out of nowhere to justify what he's teaching, even when he pulls it out of context. It bothers the heck out of me now! I remember handing her a few of the lessons I got from him, and she said something that still sticks in my mind,"Alex, this is all wrong."

Really, its a little bit of the doctrine that bothers me. The sunday school teacher is only 2 years saved. The preaching is great, if it's from the pastor. He uses the Bible to back up what he's saying, and he uses it in context. I don't really see anything wrong with it until he starts going on a rant of how rock music is the devil and the like. I don't know that I should stay at this church. It's a good church in the sense of what they do. They pray allllll the time, they're always inviting people over to their house after service, even if it's the first time they've met... well, especially then. When something really bad happens to one family, the church pulls together for them. It's a good church, but sometimes... I just don't know sometimes. They don't emphasize on love like I believe they should. I agree with the whole, God is love, but that's not all He is. But the thing is, love is the greatest thing, and it really should be emphasized above all else. So I don't know... what do you guys think?

[Annie]

the legalistic views on rock music and KJVonly-ism is bad. That tells me the church has completely misunderstood the law and is beginning to condemn nything that falls outside of their own convictions and beliefs and thats probably not where they stop - in my experience KJV only people and churches are very big on conspiracy theories that makes them view their theology in a very skewed way. I'm not saying that to rag on them or to scare but to give you a heads up that you will probably see it get worse.

The one that really concerns me though is this belief that you have to hate yourself, that is a horrible deception. The Bible does say that we must decrease that He may increase and that we must die to self but there is no way to properly interpret that to mean that we have to hate ourselves. What that means is we're not to be focusing on ourselves - our focus needs to be on God. And if we start teaching that we need to hate ourselves that would be a direct violation of those verses i alluded to because being forced to hate ourselves is being forced to focus on ourselves. Not to mention it makes no sense.. if God loved us enough to send His only Son to die for us that we might have eternal life with Him we're supposed to hate ourselves? we also need to hate sin and we need to hate it enough that when we do sin we will repent but that again doesn't translate to hating ourselves. I really don't know how thye could justify that one.

have you talked to your parents about your concerns with this church?

[memoriesbymichelle]

That's why I'm not big on denominations or religion. In my opinion Religion is man's way of trying to reach or please God. I don't think all religions are bad necessarily, but they all have their flaws. I choose to believe the Bible first and foremost. I attend a non-denominational church that uses the ESV version
http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/preface/

I use the NIV, American Standard, New KJV. I like them all. You have to be pretty strong in your faith to attend a church like that and keep the good and throw out the bad teachings.

I don't agree with the whole "hate yourself" thing. I don't think God who loved us enough to send His son Jesus to die for us, would then want us to "hate" ourselves. I was always taught hate the sin, not the sinner.
I also don't agree that any music with a beat is from the devil, otherwise we wouldn't even be able to worship God with songs or music. They all have beats.
I would suggest talking to your parents after much prayer about the issues you bring up here. I don't know how your parents will react, but at least you will have voiced your concerns. Maybe you could find a youth group or Bible study and a non-denominational church in your area during the week to help keep you strong while you attend your parent's church on Sundays. Then maybe eventually they would consider switching churches if you really get in a good one and they see the good it does in your life.

[DMcKay]

Mr Dude, for someone preparing for the ministry you are lacking in knowledge about the church you attend. Baptist churches don't consider themselves denominational. they usually refer to themselves as a movement. Originally they were called ana-baptists as a derogatory name because they "Re-baptized" people who were baptized as babies. They held to a Believer's Baptism, meaning that the individual gives their life to Christ as a living sacrifice in appreciation for His death, burial and resurrection for our salvation. Baptism is an act of identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ.

Don M

[irishman82]

I just wanted to address the hating point:

Something productive can come out of hating yourself, for as we all know:

All Have Sinned and Fall Short of the Glory of God

Romans 3:23

and also.

Isaiah 64:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

And we know that we are judged on God's standards not on human ones.

You can hate yourself for being a sinner and because you struggle with what's immoral and moral. but physically harming yourself is foolish, for your body is God's temple and belongs to him.

I guess sometimes we can hate something like our actions because we know we could be better and only God can grant us that, but to let it torment us is another thing, the answer is prayer as always.

Pray so that you will not be tested.

[DMcKay]

I hit the post button before I was finished because I had a contractor at the door. It sounds like you have been caught up in a church that is very much into legalism. This is especially true of Baptist churches that adhere to the whole KJV Only thing. Your observation is correct about the KJV. In fact, Erasmus who wrote the Greek text upon which the KJV is based only had 5 manuscripts, and the only one that wasn't Byzantine, he didn't use. None of the texts that he used was complete so he translated the Vulgate from Latin into Greek and used that.

The NASV and the NIV are usually rejected by those who are KJV only because they believe that they were created from Greek texts created by Catholics and had the taint of the Vatican. This is so stupid, the Catholics follow Erasmus' text and so do the KJVers and they don't seem to have a problem with that. If one takes the time to actually study the original texts one finds that there is less than 1 1/10 of a % of the variant readings that have anything to do with something other than spelling errors or copist errors. And no doctrine stands or falls on the basis of one verse.

Baptists like these give Baptists a bad name.

[ThenThereWasRED]

Some independent Baptists ARE TOO legalistic. :sigh: My church was an independent Baptist and joined the Southern Baptist almost 2 years ago. It's been a good thing too.

Even though my church uses KJV to teach/preach, my pastor has said there's nothing wrong with using some other translations to help in studying.

The problem I have with people who say, KJV only is that it's *English* and what about people who speak a different language? Does that make their translations inferior and if the KJV is the *perfect* translation, does God not care about other language speaking people? Scripture says, it will not come back void. There is some translations better than others.

If you look at it in that way then you can see a different side.

A pastor friend of my parents went to speak at another church (independent) at a revival. They had a sign of *do's & don'ts* in the foyer. One was not stated properly...what they meant to say is no females would be allowed to wear pants in the church. The pastor saw one of the *rules* said, *no pants* and he jokingly ask the pastor if he should leave since he had pants on. The pastor there got the point and removed the sign.

Too many people make rules that breaks the heart of God. We should study scripture and see what it says, without getting twisted by a person's opinion.

[DMcKay]

And what about the church before 1600? How could the church have gone so long without the "Perfect" KJV? I was in a legalistic Baptist church just as a member while I was working on my doctoral program. One summer they decided to have an all Church camping trip near a Lake up in the Rockies.

It was some where around 90? in the shade. My wife was wearing a short sleeved blouse over Jeans that stopped just below the knee. The Pastor came up to me and began haranging me about my wife dressing so immodestly and being a stumbling block for the teen age girls who were there. I politely pointed out to him that he was a legalistic hypocrite. His Youth Pastor was wearing a skin tight Speedo bathing suit that was smaller than many bikinis I have seen. Shortly after this we left that church, we had to break all ties with many of the members who had become good friends from the classes I was teaching.

The reason we had to cut off all ties was because they kept coming over and complaining about different things that the Pastor was declaring to be unspiritual. I told them that if they had a problem with him, he was who they needed to discuss the problem with, and not come to me complaining. I couldn't allow myself to become a source of division in the Church when I wasn't even there.

[RestoreTheRiver]

Mr. Dude:

Your respect for, and devotion to, your parents is commendable. If you are living at home, as is likely, at the age of 17, then going to the church your father chooses is an appropriate action of respect and obedience.

At the same time, legalism is more than unfortunate. It is a deadly poison. You've begun to recognize that; and your friend is helping you to see more and more of that reality.

As an emerging adult, with a call to the ministry, you should have the respect of your parents in return. Therefore, it should be possible to discuss your concerns about this church, and your desire to explore other options. You could offer scriptural support for your concerns, and point out that, as a future pastor, it would be good for you to experience other perspectives.

If your parent's are deeply committed to this church, this discussion may be difficult, to say the least. Bathe it in prayer first, and see how the Lord leads you. You may be called to bring fresh Light on these concerns to your own parents.

As a pastor-in-training, use everything that happens to you as a part of your development. Why does this church teach as it does? What good are they trying to achieve and perserve? Where does this good intention go wrong? What does scripture say? Your tradition doesn't speak of tradition. But, you do recognize the godly example of those who have gone before us. What do the great teachers you respect, past and present, have to say about legalism? What are the pastoral implications? In short, think and pray through the whole experience theologically. Let it all be part of your learning and discipling process.

If it is not possible to seek another church at this time, broaden your perspective with good friendship, fellowship, and study.

To quote an old teacher of mine, I believe "God is stirring your nest."

Michael

[Mr.Dude]

Wow... I just did a little bit of a study on the KJV and the texts that the NIV and KJV are based on. I read a little on the history of how the KJV came to be, and it was translated using other bibles that were available at the time! It used scrolls that were from the 9th century, whereas the NIV uses texts based in the 2nd century. I just can't see how people would believe that the KJV is the one and only Bible. They say it was the first one, but it definitely was NOT. There was the Tyndale, the Geneva, The Great Bible, etc. Besides, the arguement that it's first, so therefore it must be right is quite childish. I'm starting to get a little bit enlightened here... Thank you guys for your advice. I needed it. I kinda need an idiot filter sometimes to see if I'm on to something or not... and I guess this time I'm on to something! I just can't believe it...

Now as for the hating yourself thing, that was just the sunday school teacher, I'm sure I already said that, but I just want to make sure you guys aren't misinformed. I already understand that that was a very much so WRONG teaching that almost got me killed. And as for the rock music being from the devil, for me, something inside me just says that that is just not biblical, not right, in fact, just plain evil. Christian rock has been a good influence in my life, it never made me want to kill someone, do drugs, or any of that crap. So my foot is tapping, I see their foot tapping to some of the hymns sung in church!! I don't understand how someone could be so close to God, yet have some very scary doctrine like that...

So yeah, I'm going to take her to church with me tomorrow just to make sure I'm not over-reacting or anything. And I'll do a little more studying on this subject... it's pretty well disturbing...